Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Then I don't understand how that system does not support original TAS and its authors. Original authors remain the same. Isn't that support?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Did you watch the video I linked? It talks about actual TASing environment and how it's used to make optimal movies without too much hustle. What you're describing is not workflow. What TAS tools do you use to create a TAS and how exactly do you use them?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Technickle, what's your TASing workflow? Most of us here do it like this: Post #499336 onward.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
MESHUGGAH wrote:
I don't like this approach. My current opinion according to feos' version is a strong No as this system would not support the original TAS and it's TASers.
Was that a reply to my latest post or to TiKevin83?
TiKevin83 wrote:
I 100% agree on authorship but I think it would be good to have resyncs that get console verified to have a point reward unless we don't see a reason to incentivize that.
Authorship is the only way to get player points so I dunno.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Regarding game shows, my personal opinion is that they shouldn't be blanket banned. I don't see this as part of the discussion on the above linked thread by Samsara. I guess I'm in the minority who thinks game show TASes and some other banned genres should be allowed to get a chance case by case. If that's the case, it's not important to create a thread, I just want to understand why they get no chance to be allowed.
I haven't seen a huge argument over some partially game-show game that still had noticeable TAS merits, I haven't taken a strong opinion in that discussion, and I haven't discussed the hell out of potential future-proof rule for them, coming up with an improvement, and then a few years later with complete removal of the ban because the main problems are already covered in another rules I participated in improving. For this reason I don't have an opinion on game show game TASes. But if you are Masterjun, your approach to having this solved is causing step one in my description: the huge argument; and AFD is your canonical date for this.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
I don't know a complete answer until we come to an agreement. My personal opinion is this:
Resyncing should only be done if an old movie had audible or visible emulation errors and a resync fixes them, or the old run didn't sync on console and the new one does. When none of those issues remain anymore, new resyncs will be rejected.
A new run should sync on a versioned release of a currently approved emulator.
No known improvements are there to implement.
A resync is a new submission, and it obsoletes the previous run, but previous authors remain as if it was them who created the resync. Resyncer gets no points and no authorship. To get authorship and points, make an actual improvement.
Notifying the previous authors is not required.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
I have a whole bunch of reasons laid out on why resync should not compete with initial TASing. Authorship matters can be deduced from that as well.
If you create a TAS alone, you are its sole author.
If you improve a part of an existing TAS, and take the rest of the movie, you are a co-author.
If you reTAS from scratch and beat someone else's movie, you're a new sole author.
If you do not improve gameplay, you're not an author of a TAS.
Nothing prevents you from finding a real improvement if there is. If you know the game well enough, you very well may find it.
There's no way to measure effort that had to be invested into a resync. So there's no way to distinguish between low-effort resync spam just to gain points and painstaking work that involved a ton of research and trial-and-error. So there's no way to distinguish between cases when common sense says it's fair to become a co-author and cases when it's obviously an abuse. So if actual superplay is not improved, it's better to retain the unambiguous borderline we've always had.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
moozooh wrote:
Despite being a more faithful representation of the game, which should always be preferred with all else being equal, the resync is essentially relegated to being a sidenote—even though in theory it should take priority since the rules invalidate gains made thanks to emulation inaccuracies.
I don't understand this sentence (the part after the dash). We don't expect emulation accuracy to get worse over time, so we don't explicitly invalidate gains new movies get from worse accuracy. Implicitly we do ignore such differences, but why does it affect priority of resyncs?
moozooh wrote:
2. Nobody is allowed to offer a resync on behalf of the author (under the original author's name, of course) if they aren't around. That situation has, in fact, happened in the past, when adelikat submitted a resync of Phil & Genisto's Circus Charlie in their name, having failed to find meaningful improvements. And it was accepted because the previous run was made on a horribly inaccurate, long-deprecated emulator, and there was an effort going on to replace all runs made on it with something better. This situation is liable to repeat in the future as TASes become better-optimized, and we'll likely run into it whenever we orchestrate new efforts to get deprecated emulators off the site and find other movies without known improvements.
We don't disallow other people from resyncing movies to work on console. There's no explicit rule for resyncs, even though this thread was made so we could have one. The situation of console resync being added only happened once, and we can still tweak it as we need.
moozooh wrote:
2. Situations where a different author had genuinely tried to find gameplay improvements but failed, yet their effort resulted in a different (more accurate) time compared to the original movie, this is best done via a separate submission, and credit can then be shared between the author(s) of the original movie and the author(s) of the attempt at improvement. This addresses concern #3 and the other half of #2.
Mothrayas and adelikat disagree with changing authorship here (even to co-authorship). Nach isn't posting in these threads, but I can conclude that since he doesn't want non-gameplay improvements to be accepted, he also disagrees with authorship being changed upon resync.
Otherwise, I like the precedent of #1411: Phil & Genisto's NES Circus Charlie in 03:22.68, and majority seems to agree that submitting a resync is acceptable as a new publication, if conditions are met.
moozooh wrote:
3. Once a movie is confirmed to sync on console, no future resyncs for it are necessary.
I like this.
moozooh wrote:
1) the existing publication has no documented improvements;
I like this.
moozooh wrote:
2) the author of the movie intending to replace it has failed to find improvements but can prove their due diligence in trying;
How do we verify this?
moozooh wrote:
3) the change of emulator has lead to fixing immediately evident presentation issues (wrong visuals/sound/game behavior) and/or made it sync on console.
I like this.
moozooh wrote:
1. Minor resyncs where relatively few actions need to be taken to achieve sync on a more accurate emulator can be added to the existing publication as per the current practice, but the time and encode should be changed appropriately and the old movie file removed from the publication page. Having a less accurate movie made on a deprecated emulator alongside a more accurate one serves no functional purpose. A link to it can remain in the submission message for posterity. Such resync can be offered by whoever as long as the credit remains with the author(s) of the original movie. This addresses concerns #1 and partially #2.
I HATE this. We do not, ever, unpublish movies. We do not erase them from the database. If it was created, accepted, and published, it is a valid verified record. We are an archive of records among other things. We want to be persistent and reliable. And the work that was invested in it should not be undone. I'm scared to even think of other potential "reasons" to erase a movie from the site. The only reason this should ever happen is accidentally using an entirely wrong movie or having a movie containing illegal data in it somehow. Erasing it doesn't only say it's bad to have it on the site (we backwards-obsolete impossible movies that were proven to have relied on emulator bugs), it says it's dangerous to still host it! There's no reason to act like the pre-resync movies are that bad.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
c-square wrote:
I can attest that developing and tuning the lua scripts to tas it optimally was certainly not a trivial task.
It's impossible to check how hard it has to be to write a sufficient script. It's also hard to compare writing it with just using frameadvance+rerecords. In theory, for any trivial game a script can be arbitrarily complex, and for a hard game it may be impossible to make a tasing script. What we can try comparing is what can be achieved with just trial and error (manual tasing), and how greatly the result varies once you understand the mechanics.
This manual TAS matched in final time with a fully botted run. With highly RNG based games, especially on a hard to set up emulator, getting to try to tas it is already non-trivial, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game provides enough room for an optimization competition (making the record meaningful).
Might still be a good idea to unreject and rejudge it, to see how it stands against the updated rules.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Without knowing the game it's hard to recognize the challenge in puzzles when they're solved so quickly. Also the intermission screens are very slow-paced and feel longer than actual play, killing the pace. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Just wanted to reiterate why all the Half-Life TASes done are not compatible with TASVideos current Movie Rules.
Please note that I'm writing these down from the top of my head, but I believe my information should be correct.
#1 - Enabling the console requires to launch the game with an additional parameter or changing one of the .cfg files that gets executed once the game launches.
It's mentioned in official docs as a non-cheat feature so it's fine.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
#2 - Manipulating FPS seems to be still not allowed
It's mentioned in official docs as a non-cheat feature so it's fine.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Number 2 also affects TASes like Elasto Mania and any other TAS that requires manipulating the framerate to a specific value using either developer code or an external application.
Depends on what official docs say.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
None of the Half-Life TASes were done on an original version. Half-Life TASes uses specially crafted files from different versions to get a new game with the desired features. Imagine as a NES game but the ROM they use uses code from an Alpha version and a Beta version, creating an entirely new game that wasn't released anytime by the developers. They didn't even had this version of their own game.
Another example would be that while this is still Half-Life, multiple files have been removed, added, changed to get this package what YaLTeR develops.
We won't have to use those mods for a tasvideos publication. As long as a libTAS movie syncs on some official release of the game, it's acceptable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I watched them and I didn't see any real playaround in them. More like some unexpplaiable actions with unclear goal. Not sure what to think of them. They just look too outdated in general.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Got a message from the author via youtube.
Hey feos, I just saw your message on the forums about my AD&D: Cloudy Mountain submission, but having trouble logging in to the forums so hopefully you see this. So the TAS does indeed forgo the corner skip. The main advantage of using that skip in the Any% branch is that it reduces the amount of mountains needed to enter from 3 to 2. In the "All Tools" branch, we must visit at least 4 mountains to meet our objective. Therefore, using the corner skip in "All Tools" is only useful if you need to get to a mountain in the lower-right of the map very quickly. In the case of this TAS, none of the mountains in the lower-right presented optimal cave layouts so there simply was no point in using it to get over there. In conclusion, I think I mischaracterized using that objective in that I meant that it forgoes a major skip in reference to the Any% branch. In reference to its own "All Tools" branch, I would say the corner skip is DEFINITELY NOT a major skip, so it would probably be best to delete that objective for the publication. Sorry for the confusion.
This explanation is convincing enough to me.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
The game sounds and looks awesome, but gameplay gets old after a few minutes, and there's little to no variety after that. Voted No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Wait a minute. Which major skip glitch does this movie avoid?
EDIT:
This seems to be The Corner Skip but there's still a question about its optimality when it comes to "all tools". If "all tools" is faster with the major skip glitch, then it should be used in a Vault movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Language: lua
local List = {}
List[0] = "BEN"
List[1] = "DEAN"
List[2] = "JOHN"
List[3] = "SAM"
a = memory.read_u8(КАКОЙ АДРЕС-ТО???)
gui.text(10, 15, List[a])
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
I'm glad to welcome our newest judge, CasualPokePlayer!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Chanoyu wrote:
Will people make 20-30 TASes of the same game though; for how many games is that really a danger?
Hard to tell. If a game offers enough difference for 30 branches, I wouldn't mind. People feeling passionate about TASing something is an important factor we've never considered in the past. It needs some care.
Chanoyu wrote:
"Different enough" is indeed tricky to define, but maybe a poll question in the vein of "should this movie be published" can help with some intersubjectivity.
Indeed this is what I suggested here. Though it looks like the system I suggested there is still too complicated. Maybe there shouldn't be a defined list of branches acceptable by default.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Chanoyu wrote:
I don't think I'd prepare for every eventuality in advance, since I think 'too many branches' is not a problem that will pop up a lot.
Just going through all in-game options in some games would result in 20-30 branches (different combinations of characters, simultaneous player count, difficulty, warp usage, etc.). And the borderline of "different enough" may be tricky to define, for example if there is disagreement on which branches make sense to exist on their own.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
Samsara wrote:
Actually, since we've gotten a pretty overwhelmingly positive reaction to this proposal, maybe we should all start working on hashing out the rules in finer detail. We can either come up with a definite list of categories we want to be objective, or try to come up with a clean definition for "non-objective" categories, whichever one would be more clear and concise in the long run.
Maybe we need to ask this differently.
Question to everyone
How would you decide when there's too many branches if you had absolute freedom?
Even with objective branches it often feels like they need to be limited somehow, and even with subjective branches it often feels like some of them need to co-exist.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Site Admin, Skilled player
(1238)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11304
Location: RU
WSL2 is a thing in Windows 10 that allows you to run some Linux things. Including libTAS. Though sdl-gnash may not work there.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
