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I don't think TASers must do research on every developer or publisher company even if the game runs in the NTSC mode without glitches. As for music speed, it's a subjective criterion because developers may change the speed arbitrarily as seen in NES titles using popular tunes (Disney's for example).
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Warp wrote:
When the encode of the run could just as well be simply a screenshot of the ending screen, perhaps some fine-tuning of the definition could be in place.
I'd hate for TASes to just consists of ending screen screenshots and a note that "it can be achieved in 0.12 seconds". It would suck everything that makes speedrunning cool to watch out of it.
That reminds me of NetHack. IIRC the movie of it would be unwatchable in real time. Of course it would have lots of in-game actions and "traditional gameplay", but measuring it by real time alone can be misleading.
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Lizstar , do you know if this game has increasing difficulty aside from the dino moving faster? Also is it known whether his speed increase is limited anyhow? Maybe if you just cheat the loop count to get past this movie's ending point, the dino will start moving backwards at some point and then reset its speed to normal?
If that's the case, we don't have to play until unavoidable death, even tho that'd be a valid ending point. If difficulty isn't coded to ever cap out, we only need to represent all unique content that the game has to offer. Now, is there any content in later loops that's not present in earlier ones?
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Now, I understand that you see no reasons to make a distinction between the glitch used for this movie and other glitches, as you only feel the positive aspects of it, and that's exactly why I'm saying that there is no objective "right" and "wrong" in this debate, as it all begins from what we want to allow or disallow. I also acknowledge that my point of view does feature some downsides, as well as the fact that it doesn't seem to be shared by the majority of the people here. And in any case, despite how much I'm being dedicated to this discussion so far, I don't need at all costs to have my opinion applied to the final decision, as I could still accept an outcome that differs from what I'm expecting.
From the philosophical point of view, I prefer the objectivist approach: there is one objectively correct reality with infinity of aspects, and it's impossible for a human being to grasp them all, but it's possible to keep accounting for more and more, improving your notion indefinitely. Accounting for more factors rather than fewer makes one happier, and it better fits the feelings of more people. There are objectively "right" and "wrong" solutions/answers, even though absolutely right and absolutely wrong ones are unreachable for us. Yet we can focus on everyone's priorities and come up with an answer that's as "right" as we can afford.
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What is the 100% authoritative resource of official information on any C64 game image that might be used in a TAS? We have this thread, and it doesn't have links to a resource we could fully trust.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
As I already wrote in this post, it would be a limitation for Vault-only movies that aim for fastest-completion. The only reason it's not the case for this specific submission, it's because the currently published GEG is Moons. My point is: what if it wasn't Moons? That would mean that it's going to get obsoleted and that there could be no freedom left to compete for that kind of TASing. Since similar glitches could be executed in other games, there are chances that at some point we will see Vault movies getting obsoleted by them, locking away the freedom of competing for a certain kind of TASing in favor of another.
There's always a chance some movie can't be improved by "regular gameplay" anymore. And there are always people interested in trying "irregular" gameplay against them. There's still room for improvement, so that part isn't limited. As for the feel of the movie, it's already Vault, there's very little to expect in the first place. We should be ready to lose old movies, because they're boring either way.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Generally speaking, if we decide to indiscriminately allow this kind of glitches, it would inevitably limit something else at some point.
Like what?
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
feos wrote:
Also you're still making up the goal of the site.
If that's the case, then none of my arguments are valid. And of course, I'm aware that its not up to me to decide; I'm merely sharing my ideas.
This part involved interpretation as well as ideas, and I think we should be more precise with intepretations. I tried to be precise by using actual quotes.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Depending of the point of view, a restriction can limit freedom or can enlarge freedom. If we decide for forbid certain exploits, that would indeed be a limitation, but on the other hand it would leave more freedom to make more Vault-only movies that make use of exploits that don't nullify gameplay, as these wouldn't end up competing with movies like the one from this submission.
I think we've seen them all already, and people got burnt out from both making them and particularly enjoying them, with a few exceptions. So I don't see much demand for more freedom in that regard, especially given that this freedom has always been there anyway.
Also I don't think those movies unavoidably have to compete with anything. The difference is obvious, and the current any% is in Moons.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Another alternative would be to allow both possibilities for Vault, effectively increasing the amount of Vault-applicable goals to three.
I think it's already resolved by our current rules, and this movie goes to Vault, while the current GEG just stays in Moons. Coming up with a proper label could be tricky though. Also maybe the audience just prefers obsoletion.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
feos wrote:
in order for the demonstrations to resemble superhuman playing sessions
No.
That's the problem. Even if there are more "Yes" than "No", it doesn't mean that we can ignore this part, as it's critically important. What's the point of publishing a TAS that produces a video that doesn't feature any form of gameplay, on a site that wants to showcase gameplays?
"Demonstrations must resemble superhuman playing sessions" is not a fundamental requirement of TASVideos. If it was, it would've been a part of Movie Rules. But it can't be, because it's ultimately subjective. How are "superhuman playing sessions" supposed to look? How do we make perfectly sure a given movie unambiguously "resembles" those? To whom? If people disagree, how do we resolve that? To me this movie resembles superhuman playing sessions. What do?
Also you're still making up the goal of the site.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you missed the purpose of my 2) point. It would specifically handle cases like this, by forbidding the usage of an exploit that could be used before starting the actual gameplay, regardless of how was used in a movie. That would mean that I'm not suggesting of forcing an exploit of being used suboptimally, but being forbidden altogether for being potentially game-devoiding, like in this case. Reassuming my idea:
1) All movies should trigger the function that starts the game mode during the movie, before the beating the game, and in its supposed way.
2) Any exploit that could allow to end the game before its normal start, are banned regardless of when are triggered in a movie.
I don't see any possible loophole or arbitrariness for the functioning of my idea, so far.
I don't see how my problems are resolved by this requirement, nor how do I consistently apply it, nor why exactly. It's not making things better than they are, but it dramatically limits creativity and perfection as (actual) goals of the site.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I have to note that it goes against the original purpose of the site, that we can reassume as: showcasing superhuman gameplay.
That formula is not present on that page, at least not with your wording.
Definitions of our content that are present on the page:
"tool-assisted superplay (TAS) videos, which are gameplay demonstrations"
"tool-assisted speedruns and superhuman play"
Whether or not this movie fits those depends on how exactly we interpret their parts.
This movie is clearly a tool-assisted speedrun. It's also clearly a demonstration. I would call it "play" because you play a game when you send it your inputs and it reacts, that's the only definition that I find objective and reliable. It's clearly superhuman because you can in no way replicate it without tools. Superplay is something that is "cooler" than regular play, so it's a synonym of superhuman play to me. What's left is the term "gameplay". But first, let's look at TASVideos' mission again and see if this movie still stands.
in order for the demonstrations to resemble superhuman playing sessions
No.
we strive to push games to their limits
Yes.
we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision
Yes.
entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds
No.
The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware.
Yes.
Some of these tricks we use make the games look broken. But we are not breaking the games, we are just breaking your notion on them.
Yes. (See how it addresses "looks like a password".)
[Skipping the part about quality because it depends on personal take]
We make these movies because they are entertaining to watch
No.
and because we are curious how far a game can be pushed.
Yes.
The process of creating them is also a form of problem-solving and challenge to our intellect and ingenuity.
Yes.
And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
Yes.
Overall this movie seems to fit almost perfectly. Even then, I think that page is meant to state what kind of content we want and what kind of content we don't want, but it can't predict indefinitely far future in details, yet it also has to be generic enough to cover all known types of content we're providing. A movie like this one was most likely never anticipated, so it's reasonable not to demand absolute perfection from that page's wording. And the spirit seems to fit.
Now let's get to your definition of proper gameplay. I'm not quoting parts where you say that this movie doesn't have it, because that depends on the definition anyway, and you explained well enough why your definition of gameplay isn't present.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Now answering more thoroughly to your question: What do we consider as gameplay?
In my opinion, it can be objectively defined with two rules:
1) The movie must trigger the beginning of the playable part of the game, and it must do it the the supposed way, i.e.: from the relative game's main menu or title screen. This can be objectively defined and verified with some basic trace logging, after that we identify the function that starts the play. This can also safely include "demo glitch" movies that starts the game from an in-game demoplay or scripted cutscene (984M, 2285M, 3471M, 3557M, 3567M)
2) The movie must not make use of a glitch or gimmick that could save even more time if performed before starting playing the game in its supposed way, or before that the game begins playing the demoplay or the cutscene normally, for cases where that is used for beginning the play.
There is a problem with this notion. Of course this movie can be tweaked to start from such a point. But the key is that none of regular gameplay is required for this technique to work, at all. It doesn't matter at which point you trigger this glitch. It won't involve any character movements, none of "traditional gameplay" code has to be executed. Gameplay is fundamentally and wholly irrelevant to this movie.
Now if we try to force it to have gameplay, more problems appear. The movie doesn't become more impressive. It doesn't get harder to reproduce in real time. It doesn't get harder to make. It doesn't get more entertaining. But it does become sub-optimal! And even if ending point can be vague (which is why we compare game's overall behavior), starting point, in addition to being a pointless restriction, becomes vague too. For example, how would this requirement impact movies that don't have to end before regular gameplay is started? Can we still optimize menuing? Can we glitch menuing to happen faster, or to skip it altogether? Can we use menuing to trigger in-game glitches? Why?
If the requirement is limited to movies that end before "regular gameplay" starts, aside from not making it any better, this would look like a unique restriction that doesn't relate to any other content or TASing spirit. And the TASig spirit has always been "use available input ports for all possible input combinations trying to beat the game fast, and see what happens". In that, this movie is similar to [2047] SNES Chrono Trigger "save glitch" by turska & inichi in 03:28.06 for example. Entertainment rating is 3.6, tech rating is 8.7. People do appreciate crazy glitching and breaking bad, even if it's boring as hell.
We also have a rule about initial RAM state. Its premise is that as long as some startup RAM state is verified as possible on console, it's allowed. This is clearly a non-gameplay thing, and it can dramatically affect whatever ends up being played in a TAS, be it "regular gameplay" or something else. Even though using this technique may introduce unequal conditions for the competition, and even though it's actually really hard to verify, it is generally allowed to influence how the game behaves, regardless of what is called "gameplay". If we force your restriction, this rule loses its meaning.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Indeed, in-game passwords, in most cases, consist of hard-coded input sequences that can lead to intentionally unfair advantages or outcomes. For some games, passwords may also require certain input timing. So, if we really want to be pedantic, yes, we could see some similarity or resemblance. What makes it worse, is that many games have some still undiscovered passwords coded in, so there could even be (theoretically speaking) cases where such could slip in, as we can't detect something with trace logging if we don't know which function are we needing to watch. And even if, ad absurdum, we reverse-engineer the full code of a game, we still will never be 100% sure that a password was coded in some obscure way that we couldn't notice or figure out.
We don't have to reverse-engineer the whole game to tell that functions used in this movie to trigger the ending do not involve passwords or other in-game codes. We just read the tracelog and compare it to what this movie is claimed to be doing, that's all.
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Gameplay isn't bad, but those endless interruptions become incredibly annoying, because of how short the levels are, and because the interruptions are all the same, and they are kinda long. Voted No.
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Yes the question is only about the movie itself.
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Highest rated Addams Family movie, but constant high speed makes it a bit monotonous for me. Yet I know it's a good movie in itself. Any more opinions?
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Zeupar wrote:
I think using a screenshot from the part between 25:11 and 25:14 for the publication would be cool.
One of these?
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Yeah I don't expect this goal to count as full completion, because for that one has to be sure that it's actually full and can't be fuller.
Lobsterzelda wrote:
It's not a very entertaining game to watch, though that's a result of the game's developers rather than any issues with this TAS itself.
It's how it works: we assess entertainment value of game+movie. Sometimes a game can't be made more entertaining, and then the movie can't reach Moons.
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Welcome our new judge Maru!
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Guys please post feedback and vote for this movie. Is it entertaining to watch several loops of this game with slightly increasing pace, with this kind of music and visuals, for 20 minutes?
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Picking an easier difficulty just because it's "the fastest way" feels cheap, especially when it's in fact detracting part of the optimization challenge.
Maybe the decision itself feels cheap, but we would only reject such a movie if the overall audience feedback is negative because of switching to easier difficulty. If it doesn't look particularly and obviously different, just a little worse, it wouldn't lead to rejection.
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Ok, but if this movie gets accepted, then how would be compared with future submissions that use the hardest difficulty? I don't think that a decision of obsoletion should be based on audience reception alone, but more on the technical merits between the two movies compared. And comparing technical merits becomes moot if these use different difficulty modes.
The guidelines you quoted here disagree with the notion that technical qualities are move important. In fact, those aren't even mentioned among the factors! What is mentioned is more content, more entertainment, and looking more interesting.
In general, it shouldn't be impossible to compare 2 submissions done on different difficulties: in similar situations the "harder" submission shouldn't be slower, and in unique situations it shouldn't be slow.
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Sounds like introducing dependency on verification movies. Also reminds me of game installation steps and preparations, except it's a system where you're not meant to install games like you are on PC. But at the same time, it's obviously different from installation steps because it's doing weird manipulations to the console timer.
The main problem here is that hard reset is not implemented. If it was, no secondary movies would be needed. Alternatively, setting movie startup time needs to be supported. The multi-movie approach just works around implementation problems with some very questionable techniques. I don't think it's acceptable for publication.
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<Masterjun> TASVideos: How to push people who push video games to the limit to the limit
<Mothrayas> "here on TASVideos, we push people to the limit to push games to the limit and then they push ourselves to the limit"
-*- Masterjun is all out of limit
<Mothrayas> what you must do is be cloud
<Mothrayas> after all, the sky is the limit
<Masterjun> yeah I'm gonna push this video game to the sky when I'm finally done
<Masterjun> then I let gravity do its thing
<Masterjun> hmm, considering I'm reaching the limit before the game does, I'm actually pulling it to the limit!
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fsvgm777 wrote:
For what it's worth, there is a T64 to TAP converter (and vice versa) that's available called WAV-PRG.
It can be found here.
If games converted from T64 to TAP can be used for TASing them....that's left for the senior judge to decide.
It should be covered by the paragraph about mediums here:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#RomImageMustBeGood
But if the original image can't even be run on actual C64, we should prefer an image that can be. In a situation when neither format is authentic, conversion from emulator-only to C64-usable looks acceptable.
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zdoroviy_antony wrote:
Can movie be submitted, if it is not new world record by a time, but same time and more entertaining version, when beat time is most likely not gonna ever happen and author of original time improvement don't want to submit a run, because it is most likely not gonna be accepted? I want to try, because it is cool movie for my opinion.
The general answer is yes: if there's no known way to improve the time anymore, but entertainment gets significantly improved, such a run can be accepted, as discussed in the SMB topic.
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And if you just run right from here (or shoot portals to the right) you will reach the end later than in the movie?
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Why can't you jump up right away here?
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