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CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
After watching the movie and reading the entire thread, I've concluded that this thread is undeniable proof that this community likes to argue over nothing.
https://xkcd.com/915/
This is known. We are conversation nerds. It's impossible to be a nerd at TASing and not get professional deformation.
CtrlAltDestroy wrote:
I'm only speaking for myself, but many of the most memorable TAS moments I can recall are the moments that made me think the movie was desynching or that the player made some kind of obvious mistake, only to be revealed that it wasn't a mistake at all. A good example would be in the SMB2U TAS on world 4-3 where players like to make Luigi stall in the starting room, which clearly looks like a mistake, only for the viewer to realize later (or even better, not to realize and have to ask about it) that the Birdo's eggs are on a global timer and he needed to wait for it. To me, mastery and perfection are inherently entertaining, and making a fool of the viewer is one of the highest forms of demonstrating mastery.
I also fully agree with this. It just appears that when the audience of any, once obscure, hobby becomes huge enough, the amount of people whose tastes differ increases too. This is life, it's silly to get upset by the very presence of dislikers.
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To be honest, I don't know why we even still have polls. It's been mentioned a few times (not only in this thread), that when a movie is being judged, only posts that represent actual notion are considered. Silent votes are always disregarded. Because really, they don't prove anything at all, therefore we can't use them for anything when judging.
What we care about is posts. And posts make it clear who dislikes or likes your movie. Also posts contain a whole lot of other potentially useful information, we share ideas and come up with solutions. Or argue, like ITT.
I learned one important thing recently. Polls are for things that can be simplified to the point of stupidity. You don't have to invest any serious effort into brainstorming, looking for logical solutions, discussing, generating insights. You just voice your opinion in a simplified form. Since it's a simplified form, it's not helpful.
Often we have complicated situations with tons of factors to consider, and it's not known beforehand if there is even a sensible solution. In order to resolve such open problems gracefully, a lot of mental effort is required. Sharing ideas, digging into non-obvious aspects, evaluating the potential outcomes, all sorts of crazy stuff. We are geeks, we love this, puzzle-solving is in our blood since the day we learned TASing.
Do silent votes help with any of this? No way.
Another problem, votes can be manipulated to provide desirable outcome. You just have to simplify the problem in people's eyes, and provide options that are based on that simplified problem. You can preset people's opinions if you're smart (and mean) enough.
We don't want to rely on that kind of things. This is why we don't believe in silent votes officially. We only believe in helpful discussion. Submission votes are a legacy thing, maybe people want it to be there. I don't think removing its has ever been considered. But it's virtually non-existent when it comes to serious mental effort.
tl;dr: don't mind silent votes, treat them as youtube comments. Because that's what judges do.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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p4wn3r wrote:
Essentially, if you spend months making a run and explaining how everything does, you should be open to people bashing it without knowing anything useful.
But if you just spend 20 minutes watching a movie, then you are free to write and vote whatever you want for any reason, because it is not acceptable to say that their criticism is dumb. Youtube users that scream "Cheats!" at every TAS should find this policy very nice!
This post seems to be talking about policies. Which tasvideos policy does it criticize in particular, and what are the suggestions to fix or improve it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You can look at it differently. Reaching the end via a major skip glitch is primarily demonstrating the glitch itself, and the fact that it can be used to speed you up. It doesn't matter if you call that any%, or you call any% the fastest run that avoids that technique.
I think the common rules about "any%" meaning no restrictions on glitches haven't served our categorization approaches too well. We only happen to accept such any% for Vault. For Moons we accept both "glitched fastest game completion" and "fastest game completion without major skip glitches".
The latter demonstrates how you reach the goal of beating the game, the former demonstrates how you can glitch the game into thinking it's been beaten.
But for all other categories, we can't equally accept 2 versions of each branch:
"pacifist, warp glitch" and just "pacifist"
"all items, arbitrary code execution" and just "all items"
"maximum kills, game end glitch" and just "maximum kills"
It doesn't (and shouldn't) work like this. We prefer the ones that more faithfully achieve the primary goals. We also want to avoid redundancy, avoid meaningless publications. And finally, we want to only publish branches with solidly defined goals.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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In 2014 viewer enjoyment coming from PSX Oddworld games has greatly degraded, and stopped resulting in Moons ratings the prior Oddworld TASes had.
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-PSX-Group45-RatingV-Obs.html
So anything beyond any% and 100% is very unlikely to be accepted from the series. "Max casualties" is the only sensible exception it seems.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Genocide is funny
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> >Shit
[18:01] <Spikestuff> (Also please for the love of God don't take that out of context anyone)
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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andypanther, I know it's arbitrary, it will be duly addressed. I just think we need to discuss this rule proposal as a community, because we have a nice example of why we'd want such a rule, which is this run.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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So let's talk about the glitch used here to get the medallions. I was told that it can easily be considered a major skip glitch, without it the run with the same goals would be more than twice as long.
Recently there was a common decision at tasvideos to forbid memory corruption, ACE, and some other glitches from "full completion" actions.
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#FullCompletionRules
Note that all these techniques can still be used throughout the whole run, they just can not be used for things that represent full completion requirements. For example, in a Super Metroid 100% run, you can activate ACE and use it to speed you up, but not for writing the items into your inventory without actually collecting them, and not for displaying the false item count percentage in the end.
So I want to ask, do we want other goals that form branches to also forbid such techniques, not just "full completion"?
For example, do we want to consider a legit TAS a run of Super Metroid aiming for "100% map" that simply uses ACE to color all the map as visited, while only visiting, say, a single room for real?
Or do we want Contra: Hard Corps "best ending" to go the "secret ending" route instead, and then glitch the game into showing us the best ending?
Or do we want Tetris "fastest 999999" to glitch the game into showing that score instead of actually obtaining it in-game?
I think that any goal that forms the TAS branch should be accomplished for real, instead of tricking the game into thinking it was accomplished. And I think the exception should be demonstrating the glitchy technique itself, like "box glitch" in Crash Bandicoot.
If we agree on such a rule, it becomes clear that this run doesn't aim to collect all the medallions. It just showcases a glitch that tricks the game into thinking they have been collected. Something like "all medallions glitch". Or "item glitch". You name it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
I seem to remember some kind of discussion about this, and the consensus was that Wii VC versions of games would probably be accepted. I might remember wrong.
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Why won't you post the Lua scripts you've made?
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p4wn3r wrote:
From my part, I think it's entirely unreasonable that every movie before this one had a given level of entertainment preferences and, somehow, coincidentally, after people stir a bit of controversy in the submission thread, the preferences of many users suddenly change and they don't find HappyLee's choices entertaining anymore. While everyone is allowed to exercise their subjectivity in rating something, no one deserves special treatment if the author has good reasons to believe the "rating" is bullshit also.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that there appeared a competitor out of thin air? I mean, before MrWint stepped in, everyone was taking HappyLee's work for granted, and now they are subconsciously challenging it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Stovent wrote:
Here, he collected all the medallions, so the games allows him to enter Ganon's castle in the regular way, but uses a credit warp glitch to skip iit and finishes the game faaster.
Still unsure. He collects them, therefore he is then allowed to enter the castle, but he just never enters it? As in, medallions are effectively useless in this run?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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BrunoVisnadi wrote:
that's not how we are supposed to vote.
We're not censoring votes for a reason. But should we really switch to that topic here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Consider this example.
In Ghosts'n'Goblins you need a cross to beat the final boss. I warp-glitch from level 1 to where the cross is located, grab it, then game-end-glitch skipping the boss. And call the branch "the cross". Does this submission do the same with those medallions?
I mean, you just go out of your glitched route, collect them in a glitched way simply because you can, and then never actually use them?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
If MAME is really supplying a faithful 4x86 lacking all the newer features, you might need to ramp that up to 600MHz or more just to match a Pentium II 266 MHz when the software in question is capable of using the newer stuff.
MAME supports overclocking for that CPU (quoting Lord_Nightmare, "start MAME with the -cheat parameter and then in the sliders menu you can adjust cpu overclock"). Since 586 emulation is weak, and if we stick to 486 officially, will it be allowed to overclock the CPU? My personal opinion is that given no other options to run newer games, and technical ability to do this physically to the original CPU, it'd bring more benefits than controversy.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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See here for problems with Jabo.
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=463174#463174
I will soon release a bizhawk version where GlideN64 fixes a bunch of problems with OoT, so Jabo won't be so necessary anymore. That version will be for WinXP x86, so there won't be any reason not to use GlideN64 in submissions like this one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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HappyLee wrote:
No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
The problem is, whether one is entertained or not depends on subjective factors entirely. Anything can affect one's mood, and mood can affect enjoyment. Also tastes differ. Enjoyment can't be guaranteed, no matter how hard you work. Maybe it has to do with inspiration instead? Hard work is good, and without it inspiration won't be able to make you generate highly impressive solutions. But hard work without inspiration, or not fully based on inspiration, is sometimes not as enjoyable as you'd expect.
HappyLee wrote:
So all I say is this: I didn't have to be so hard on myself when making this run and spend so much effort trying to bring this run into a new level of SMB TASing, just to have my work degraded by some people here. I could have done this the easy way, without having to worry about how to deal with every jump, every fireball, every detail, every new and exciting ways of killing enemies, new ways to show more glitches of this game, or where to slow down for entertainment. If people here can't appreciate it, why should I bother submitting my work on TASVideos at the highest standard possible? I could care less.
You're a creative person. TASVideos is a site for creative work. We highlight the most creative pieces of work, we value them a lot. But sometimes creative people don't notice that they still have directions to improve themselves. I think for a creative person, who also happens to be a hard worker, the right direction of improvement is becoming a professional.
Some people would say that once you start earning money with what you do, you are a professional, but I disagree: if you earn money with what you do, you're just really good a it. IMO, what makes you a professional (aside from the time and effort that you've invested into something over the years) is ability to look professionally at your own professionalism! When you know you're a pro, and you don't take it too seriously.
I have an example, my fellow Zubareus was making incredibly awesome covers on game music. Very talented, sophisticated stuff, he would always play a bit of the original tune, and then create all sorts of variations on top of it, that are not the same anymore, but similarly awesome. He was doing that for years. But always there was some degree of his audience that would move in and start bitching that he makes those variations instead of playing 100% as the original. Somehow they didn't care that the original tune was still there, they literally wanted him to stop building his own creative ideas on top. After years of that bitching he got demotivated and stopped developing original tunes. He actually started only playing the original as is.
What does it mean? His creativity that he dedicated so much effort to over the years, was not just ignored, it was disliked! He asked himself, why would I work so hard on my improvisations every time, if there will still be people who say "fuck this creativity, we want stupid midi-rips just like millions of others do, we don't understand art".
You see, creative people who invest tons of effort into their art can get demotivated, if some percent of their audience doesn't like how they do their art.
And what I want to say with all this, you will ALWAYS see some percent of people who don't care how much work you invest, how much you enjoy your own art, their taste is simply different! Do not let this kill creativity in you, become a professional upon your own skills. If somebody doesn't enjoy what you enjoy, it's not their fault, it's just their difference. Remember that there will always be people that do enjoy your art! Work for them, don't mind the haters, and your mood will be much much better.
After realizing that TASing is art I wrote this page:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
I noticed you have quite some philosophy behind TASing, so that page might interest you.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Third, if you are unhappy with the way the site/community handles things, you are welcome to stop contributing. No one is forcing you to participate.
This is not an official notion. We want all TASers to feel comfortable here and contribute their works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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No, it looks like the call should have used "at486" instead?
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I have another idea. Please test all this on the version I have rerecording for. It's MESS, not MAME, they merged the codebases a while ago, back in 2010 they were kinda separate, but I think I can compile this version of MESS with rerecording if it works for you guys.
http://www.progettosnaps.net/download?tipo=mess_bin&file=/mess/packs/mess0139b.zip
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Regarding VirtualBox-RR, recently we had an Hourglass submission created in a VB WinXP. It only synced for the author, but for none of the people who had an identical VB environment. It worked for me partially on native XP. I would very much try to avoid anything that heavily depends on the host hardware, even though the possibilities that running a modern system emulator would open are quite tempting.
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
The problem is, there's no such emulator yet.
MAME cannot do it?
Also, maybe we should consider VirtualBox-RR.
My current mame-rr wasn't compiled with support of anything but arcades, and it's from 2010, so I dunno how well it works there even if I make such a build. And upstream mame doesn't have rerecording yet, I was planning to add it.
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There's also a way to grab a PC emulator with rerecording, install linux on it, and run windows games via wine. Or install windows right away. The problem is, there's no such emulator yet. But this is an option, we'll see which approach happens sooner, and which approach turns out to be more stable.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
