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Memory wrote:
feos wrote:
But full completion is required to be an optional goal, in addition to shortest time.
Why? What value does that add?
So the definition of full completion is not confused with regular completion. Of course there are cases when full completion ends up being faster than what normally counts as regular completion, but I only know of one such case: [809] SNES Mega Man X2 by FractalFusion, Graveworm in 31:42.45 (the current obsoletion chain still looks really confusing). If full completion is not optional, then it's required to win the game, and then there's no way to define full completion and fastest completion differently, which means full completion is pointless as a category.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The problem with this game seems to be lack of any winning condition or state whatsoever. The max score rule requires following the existing rules on movie completeness. When there's no way to speedrun the game, then there can not be any speed record for it. This movie is a score record, but I don't think Vault has been designed for that. The Decathlon movie is both, which is why it was accepted.
Memory wrote:
To me this is precisely the kind of game I had in mind when I pushed for the changes to score rules. This game is one where time in and of itself might not make the most sense as a goal, but there is an extremely obvious meaningful record to aim for.
The current rules don't cover this situation. There will have to be another round of brainstorming to sort this out.
If max score for Vault is a replacement for full completion (when there's no better way to define full completion), and the game doesn't offer any room for speedrunning whatsoever, then max score is the only viable goal. But full completion is required to be an optional goal, in addition to shortest time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The Decathlon run aims for in-game time, to disregard the time needed to wait for the opponent to finish. If there's no in-game time in this game, and all the levels are timed, and some levels aren't sports, I don't think we even have a rule for such a situation.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I'm not saying it's a precedent, I mean that when dealing with Vault, different game version may not be a good enough reason to have runs on both versions, and maybe we should obsolete the USA run. I feel that would be consistent with what is decided for this submission.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I repositioned them a bit, see if the current wording is still confusing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Yeah, the category doesn't make much sense for me as well. Hitting the enemies looks cheap, and I feel that avoiding to hit them entirely would result in much more interesting strategies.
Check the previous submission.
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Sounds like a problem with this game's determinism then. There's a way to run mame debugger from bizhawk (not in the current build tho), but it requires some skills to figure out the desync reason with it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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flashthe wrote:
hi, are the links not working? thanks
Fixed now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Samsara wrote:
Hypothetical: If someone were to, say, submit a TAS that just makes a game in Game Maker, what would that be to you? It is quite literally making a game, but is it really making a game? Is the process of making a game a game in and of itself? How would that be obsoleted? Would it be writing the exact same code, but faster? What if the code is optimized in such a way that the actual base game appears unchanged? Would a brand new game be a new category? Is the entertainment value derived from the quality of the finished game, or the process of making it?
#4874: dwangoAC's TI83 Snake in 20:36.88#6498: TiKevin83's TI83 Daleks in 02:44.07
Regarding this non-game, indeed there's no ending point, no goal to aim for. We don't have problems with games that have no ending, we just demand that all unique gameplay is completed, and the highest difficulty is completed. SNES Test Program doesn't have increasing difficulty. It has no difficulty in its "gameplay" whatsoever. For games that consist of optional levels, but still have no ending, we require that all levels are completed. But in SNES Test Program's levels, there's nothing to complete, no indication of achievement, no goal and no challenge.
Subjectively thinking of this software as a game does not turn it into a game. Otherwise simply running some programs in Linux would also be a game.
#6699: Masterjun's Linux Linux "Linux" in 04:22.05Post #493813
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First we'd need to decide which glitch(es) to forbid exactly.
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Does it desync differently upon replaying? If it desyncs consistently, it must be the problem with savestates.
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The thing is, it's a Vault rule, and for Vault we need clear cuts. Intentionality adds subjectivity to the equation, and we have to be determining what some person had in mind while doing something (mindreading). We don't have this rule for Moons, and we encourage creativity there. But once the result is not entertaining, we look at internal nature of the software. I would argue that "proper game" is meant to say that the software should be a game, or an actual game. It's not like the word "proper" changes the internal nature of the object. If it's not a game in its nature, it's not a game. Another way to look t is: being a game is not enough to get to Vault, we have certain requirements, and we have a certain definition for a proper game in relation to Vault. Yet again, something that's not even a game in itself can't be a proper game either. Unless the movie is entertaining enough for Moons.
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We definitely treat the process of TASing as a game for ourselves, but aiming for fastest speed, or any kind of perfection, does not turn the very piece of software we're TASing into a game, if it has no interactive challenge inherent to it, independent from our metagaming/superplay approach.
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ais523 wrote:
Resetting during a save would make the full-game run faster, if the resulting glitchy state were used for something other than immediately ending the game. However, this would presumably be disallowed due to the full-game run being, effectively, "no game end glitch", as we typically disallow suboptimal uses of glitches. So "no reset during save" is the only thing that makes this category different from the regular game-end glitch category, and it would not have an effect in any other game-completion category (because game-end glitches more generally would be banned).
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Calculated everything.
For secondary acts, time starts when the IGT resets. For others, time starts when the IGT sprite appears on the screen. In a few places I had to start the time when the character starts moving even if the IGT is not ticking yet.
Time ends when the boss gets the final hit and you get the boss score. In levels that end abruptly I ended the time on the first lag frame. Launch Base 2 has 2 times because there's a cutscene when the IGT freezes for Sonic, and it's not there for ST.
Overall time saved with these calculations is 00:03.58 seconds of gameplay, or 9 seconds 19 frames of IGT.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
But overall I do get what you mean by legitimacy, and I'll add another thing to the legitimacy question, since the save glitches TASes use checksum collision, they also need to use a subframe reset. Particularly, my submission requires a reset that only has about a 60 microsecond window to hit. While this might seem okay on face value, you then realize we can't programmatically reset the console, and the reset has to be done by a human... To be clear, the RTA WR of Crystal had a much bigger window to hit, about 3 milliseconds, which is fairly viable for a human to hit. 60 microseconds is insanely small, it's probably possible to hit, but you might as well just flash the expected save data to the cart after the reset for a possible console verification than spend many days to hit that tiny window. Which even then that is flawed because RTC can possibly just screw you over. So I'd find it somewhat unlikely that the save glitch TAS can be console verified (which I assume would be the objective measure to what's legitimate), at most in theory it should be possible.
The goal of our movies is to show what could theoretically be done on a real console.
Post #465348
If the problem with console verification is finding the correct timing for the same exact technique, it's legitimate. If it relies on something that's not emulated correctly, and isn't possible in principle, then it's banned altogether. If we have made an educated assumption that save glitch should work on console if done right, then all movies using that technique are equally legitimate. It's not "we'd have to tweak the timings of this event to get it run on console, therefore it's not really valid, therefore we need a truly valid technique in Moons while this half-valid one is in Vault". We need CCG in Moons only if it's entertaining on its own.
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Run MAME with the -d switch so it starts with the debugger, open the memory window from debugger menu, select your memory space and try editing the address you need. It may not be editable. If writes to it aren't handled by MAME, I can't change that.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The full run doesn't reset during save either, and that's not an explicit in-game feature, so it should only be mentioned if all branches have the save reset except one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
An in-game task or puzzle that is meant to be accomplished or solved by a human while playing the game, by sending inputs to the game and getting its reaction.
It was written to help us handle #6466: Masterjun & ais523's NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" in 00:00.78.
A game's goal is making the player play it. If a game is entertaining, it is being played. We know it is entertaining if the player prefers it to doing nothing. Some games are more annoying than doing nothing, but the challenge compensates for that, indirectly making them entertaining. If there's no challenge in the game, then it should entertain the player with something else. But that entertainment should remain interactive, otherwise it's not a game anymore.
TASVideos is the site that isn't satisfied with simply playing games. Our goal is superplay, or metagaming. We impose artificial challenges to entertain ourselves by solving them, and by watching the resulting movie.
This game has no interactive challenge. It has no gameplay aside from running a few automatic events with questionable artistic value. It wasn't designed to represent the artistic taste of the creator, it just either uses placeholder images from actual Nintendo games, or shows purely technical images. Probably there is some entertainment in watching a static image like this:
But after you've seen it a few times, watching it again becomes as entertaining as doing nothing.
As a result of the above, simply going through all the menus fast does not hold any superplay value, because it's identical to checking out every menu item on a DVD, except there may be something of artistic value on that DVD, while this game exists for purely technical purposes and only allows you to test if your console is functional enough to pass all tests.
Probably relevant: http://tasvideos.org/Nach/HistoryOfGamesAndRelevanceHere.html
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Legitimacy is a valid reason to like/prefer a certain branch, but aside from personal preference it should also be entertaining with what it represents. Do you find this movie entertaining?
ais523 wrote:
For what it's worth, the category of this run should be "no reset during save", "controller input only", or something similar. What matters in terms of obsoletion is not which glitches are used, but which glitches are not used.
That wouldn't highlight its difference from the full run though. Branch labels are used to indicate what's unique about a given branch, or what explicit in-game feature it showcases (like "2 players").
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Check in MAME's memory viewer if the address you're editing is editable.
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It's not a hack, it's an unofficial port.
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That a rule for vaultable games, and if we agree that this game's quality is worthwhile, it's acceptable for Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Overall time saved with these calculations is 00:03.58 seconds of gameplay, or 9 seconds 19 frames of IGT.
But after you've seen it a few times, watching it again becomes as entertaining as doing nothing.
As a result of the above, simply going through all the menus fast does not hold any superplay value, because it's identical to checking out every menu item on a DVD, except there may be something of artistic value on that DVD, while this game exists for purely technical purposes and only allows you to test if your console is functional enough to pass all tests.
Probably relevant: http://tasvideos.org/Nach/HistoryOfGamesAndRelevanceHere.html