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How is stopping at the save screen any worse than stopping at the next screen? Neither is part of the TAS, neither matters, neither needs to be in the encode. I don't see any meaning in getting to the screen where the character endlessly stands in one place, let alone skipping credits just to show that screen faster.
Is there any serious reasoning not to replace the movie with one that only gets to the credits asap, other than feelings?
jlun2 wrote:
There's at least 2runs published where since the credits cannot be skipped, and there's a very short dialogue at the end, they're forced to include it into the run.
Why do you say they are forced?
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I'd prefer a system identical to IMDB's. You can put integers 1-10, and the result has the fractional part. People are used to that system, and to TAS movies having 10 integers, so it should be fine. Problems come from having 2 separate ratings for each movie and also manual fractional part, becoming 200 ways to vote instead of 10.
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@Bobo the King
I have nothing to do with this being implemented, since I have no access to the site code. You can't know whether Nach and adelikat are barriers or not before you talk to them. I've been talking to them for years, which is how I got my habits when it comes to explaining stuff, in order to convince them to implement something.
For quite a few posts already, the only complain I still have is where you draw the line. And I already expressed it clearly. Moth resolved my other complaints, but the one about ambiguity he resolved with putting everything unvaultable under that potential tag. Several people disagree with this. You can not add a tag several parties disagree about. Do you not see this disagreement here? Or you think the only thing preventing the actual implementation is me mentioning this disagreement, and when I shut up it will automatically be resolved? I'll shut up now and see what happens.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Wow, you can't stop aiming at my personality instead of my arguments. Doesn't look like what a "halfway decent mathematician" would do given the potential policy issues. Moth resolved most of my complaints. You resolved none.
Did you know that forum discussions are for people who care and at the same time have something to say? I've probably been a part of all policy discussions during the last few years. Some people even liked that. Some of my policytweaksuggestions have been implemented as final decisions. Not because I'm powerful. But because I cared, had something to say, and what I said appeared to be practical. So I dunno why things I say are automatically discredited by the fact that I'm the only person in the thread saying them.
you are literally the only person who has stamped his foot to say, "This is a bad idea?"
I never said the idea is bad. It'd be nice to have a list providing movies not present in any other lists, and/or a list of non-vaultable runs. But it has issues to resolve. If your solution to them is "only feos complained about them so it's all fine", I pity you.
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I PM'd Alyosha about the intended settings so hold on.
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I PM'd Alyosha about the intended settings so hold on.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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"Not vaultable" is a definition through negation. "Not [random pile of tags]" is not a sensible definition of a movie tag. If it was, you'd come up with it without having to pretend it makes me uncomfortable. I'm not aucomfortable about arbitrary borderlines, I'm just saying they are arbitrary.
By undefinable I mean than it can't be put in a way equally meaningful for the vast majority of our users. You've probably never seen users raising flamewars over a definition. Since this place is in a way geek-oriented, you have to have solid rules for things.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Bobo the King wrote:
Any% - Completes the game as fast as possible.
100% - Obtains all collectibles (or similar) as fast as possible.
Low% - Obtains the fewest collectibles, second priority is beating the game as fast as possible.
Playaround - No specific goal. Glitch exhibition.
ACE - Injects arbitrary code as fast as possible. Movie is longer to showcase the code and that it is, in fact, arbitrary.
Special goals - Anything not falling into the above list. Usually game-specific goals that that are not associated with tracked collectibles and achievements.
Disagreement once again, how cute.
"Special goal" as a term means nothing other than not something. If you want it to include everything that wastes time compared to vaultable goal, it's at least definable. If you just want it to contain everything that's not yet present in the existing tags (or some other variant), it's undefinable, and arbitrary in where you draw the line.
The latter would be more useful if it could be defined, because it would contain stuff other tags miss, but I dunno how realistic it would be.
Habreno wrote:
If the game has a percentage counter and the game's community defines their 100% as some alternative percentage (like 101% or so) then that is the 100% for that game - whatever the percentage is, you got everything that mattered. A "beyond 100%" completion could, in addition to getting things that matter, also do things that don't matter but are still tracked. In other words, it gets what would be 100% and goes beyond that. As a different example, you can get 100% in Prime 3, but you can also dupe pickups and go beyond 100%, to 255% assuming my memory serves me right. Does this mean that a "100%" TAS of Prime 3 would have to get 255%? No, because the rules of 100% require getting all individual pickups, not simply setting the value to 100%. So 255% would not be a 100% completion, not an Any% completion, certainly not All Levels, absolutely not Low%, but yet could be a Special Goal, fitting into that category by being a completion that goes beyond 100%.
Then again what you're describing here is what makes an otherwise full completion run unvaultable, since it adds more content than required for 100%, which would mean it needs to 1) be entertaining and unique enough for Moons and 2) have a goal that still feels solid and not too arbitrary. This is fine, such runs must exist. The problem is the actual borderline you draw. Why do you only include the tags you described in the "not special goal" definition?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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You're automatically always recording a movie if you use tastudio. Which, judging by the topic title, you are expected to do :P
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ruadath wrote:
Why do we have autosave as a default setting? I think it should be turned off and you turn it on if you want.
Why do we have safety bags in every car? I think it should be absent, and you put it there after you crash if you want survive.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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More cool stuff to come, stay tuna.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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natt wrote:
Why would it be helpful? When I did encodes, the piping was an advantage, not a disadvantage. You get some multiprocess speedup, and it's more stable because avisynth, a notorious memory stomper, is not in the same process as anything else important. You can also flexibly upgrade builds of x264 without needing anything special in them.
I dunno, I've read on doom9 that streaming from avisynth to an x64 x264 takes away some advantage the latter gives on x64. The current workflow is about 10% faster than x86, so I dunno how much better or worse it will get if we switch to x64 avisynth and drop (or keep) piping.
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If it doesn't autosave until you save it, you can lose your work if you forget to save and then the world collapses all of a sudden.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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GoddessMaria wrote:
...you do realize that there other staff on the site aside from you and the admins, right?
Other staff wouldn't matter (neither would I) if admins disagree with the change.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Can you maybe do encodes? I can't encode all your submissions just to let people post, since, you know, they aren't watching in emulators these days.
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One last issue remains.
feos wrote:
Staff other than feos
Have fun convincing Nach and adelikat.
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Mothrayas wrote:
They will all have some unifying constant in that they're, well, side goals. You know you can expect something that is not a standard (any%/100%) way of completion.
Besides, having movie goals not perfectly overlap with each other is not a weird thing anyway. Take the 100% tags for example, where one is "all bosses", another is "maximum score", or another is "all items". All different things, that doesn't mean they can't fit under one banner.
It still tells nothing useful to me, if people really want to be told the same thing, fine.
Mothrayas wrote:
Pages up to 1000 entries are still pretty much usable, and regardless of the precise definition, this tag would come nowhere close. My estimates put it at around 200 movies.
Besides which, we already have various tags with more entries than that. "Takes damage to save time" has as of this writing 987 entries, and one of the genre tags has more than 1000 as well. If you really think this is an issue, then you would want to discuss removing those tags first.
Practically useless in my opinion, but if people really want to drown in such pages, fine.
Mothrayas wrote:
This is why I posit "everything not vaultable", as it is well defined according to the judgment logic that the site runs on.
This is clear and could in theory be applied, except that Niamel explained on IRC that he just wants the movies missing from the tags that still have special goals to be easy to find. In the "unvaultable" form, such movies will still drown in all the existing tags. If people really want that, fine.
Mothrayas wrote:
"Playaround" is applicable to basically every game/run as well. Does that mean that we should tag every non-playaround run? We also have a "single level" tag, which also can apply to any game, so should we also introduce a tag to list all movies that beat the game, or that beat more than one level?
Bottom line is, there are quite a few tags that are technically applicable to every game. That doesn't mean they should have a counterpart, especially if that counterpart would encompass the majority of movies on this site. "Aims for fastest time" as a tag was removed for this exact reason. So the argument of requiring a counterpart tag does not really work.
Good point, I would agree on only tagging those that actually need the proposed tag, if the tag didn't have the above problems.
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Niamek wrote:
feos wrote:
Not descriptive at all
"Everything that isn't vaultable/any%/100%" tells nothing about what a movie actually has, that isn't already told by existing tags.
The tag is not for describing a movie. It's more for filtering movie. Isn't that what tags are for?
When a user picks a movie tag to observe what it has, he has the idea of what he wants to see. All existing tags are very clear and descriptive, so you won't get confused by how they apply to movies.
"Side goal" tag will end up having the majority of existing tags, with all sorts of contradictions between the movie goals, that are still somehow all put together.
Niamek wrote:
feos wrote:
Barely usable list page
When you open a movie list of some 10 movies, or even 50, you can scroll through them and make a point about each one, deciding whether you like it or not, or whether you want to watch it or not. When you have a list of 400 movies, it loads very slowly due to screenshots, and it can barely be evaluated in its entirety. Movie lists provide the only way to observe just one needed tag, and it's unusably heavy for huge tags.
I disagree. They have special goals or restriction that might make it enjoyable for viewers. I for one enjoy this kind of goal. Most of my favourite movies has special goals.
How does your preference of them disprove the point of huge pages being barely usable? See the posts I linked on why huge lists are not a good thing.
Niamek wrote:
feos wrote:
Inability to strictly define
This thread only has so many posts and there's already a disagreement on what this tag should represent. Read my links on what extra ambiguity can be caused when you try to clearly distinguish between "fastest possible" and all the rest:
Post #373655Post #373887
At first my question was more about including playaround or not, but it can be included... How is "everything not any% or 100%" not well defined?
"Everything not any% or 100%" is well defined, but it's not what Habreno wants the new tag to be.
Niamek wrote:
feos wrote:
Counterpart movie class
If some feature has only one variation, and it's rare, we mark the runs that use it (pacifist, suboptimal character, playaround). If some feature appears in several forms, we mark them all (warps: used or avoided; multiplayer: amount of players used; difficulty: hardest or easiest; memory corruption: used or avoided). These are only used when they are actually applicable, as in, when a game allows for one of these options.
Yeah it overlaps them. What about the existing tags? Major skip glitch that could be overlapped by Heavy glitch abuse? Most of Major skip glitch movies has heavy glitch abuse as tag too...
feos wrote:
Now look at "special goal". Every game allows it. So for every game you will have to use some version of that tag. Something like "any%/100%/special goal", where you will have to tag all existing movies. If you only tag those that need "special goal", you are being selective and inconsistent with the existing system.
Fine, let's tag all non play-around movie with a "not a play around tag".
What I'm saying is that when the tag is applicable at all, it can require a counterpart if there are several ways of applying it, several ways of using the feature it represents. "Side goal" is applicable to all runs in a way that they either use it or avoid, but they all can have it. Not all runs can have "uses warps" or "avoids warps". Read my post carefully to see how it works.
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Bobo the King wrote:
I normally don't mind TASVideos' resistance to change, but in this case, Niamek is proposing such a small, inconsequential, and easy-to-implement change that I think it's a pretty good idea.
I'd be interested in arguments against it from someone in addition to feos.
I'd be interested in actually disproving my points. I'll sum them up for you:
Not descriptive at all
"Everything that isn't vaultable/any%/100%" tells nothing about what a movie actually has, that isn't already told by existing tags.
Barely usable list page
When you open a movie list of some 10 movies, or even 50, you can scroll through them and make a point about each one, deciding whether you like it or not, or whether you want to watch it or not. When you have a list of 400 movies, it loads very slowly due to screenshots, and it can barely be evaluated in its entirety. Movie lists provide the only way to observe just one needed tag, and it's unusably heavy for huge tags.
Post #421689Post #425565Judge required
Some experienced person will have to go through the entire Moons and Stars lists and check whether a run is vaultable or not. In some cases it can be obvious, it some cases it can be tricky. So you can't rely on mere volunteers, because when we did, it resulted in an absolute mess with branch names.
Inability to strictly define
This thread only has so many posts and there's already a disagreement on what this tag should represent. Read my links on what extra ambiguity can be caused when you try to clearly distinguish between "fastest possible" and all the rest:
Post #373655Post #373887Counterpart movie class
If some feature has only one variation, and it's rare, we mark the runs that use it (pacifist, suboptimal character, playaround). If some feature appears in several forms, we mark them all (warps: used or avoided; multiplayer: amount of players used; difficulty: hardest or easiest; memory corruption: used or avoided). These are only used when they are actually applicable, as in, when a game allows for one of these options.
Now look at "special goal". Every game allows it. So for every game you will have to use some version of that tag. Something like "any%/100%/special goal", where you will have to tag all existing movies. If you only tag those that need "special goal", you are being selective and inconsistent with the existing system.
Staff other than feos
Have fun convincing Nach and adelikat.
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Habreno wrote:
The default should be Any% and anything that isn't should tell you what it is. Note that this does not mean all of these are vaultable, what is vaultable and what is not is not the discussion here.
Any% and full completion are the only things that are vaultable, how can they not mean a run is vaultable?
Habreno wrote:
100% should be a tag that includes both 100% categories directly and categories that don't follow the % formula directly but still imply a full completion (120 Stars comes to mind as an example). I also feel that "obtain all pokemon" should fall under this category, though there may be a reason it does not.
Low% should be a tag for runs that complete the game with a minimum % of items or minimum amount of items, where this is slower than just beating the game normally (as failing this it would just be Any%). This should be applied. If more than one Low% is possible, you can use descriptions to differentiate the TASes.
All Levels should be a tag for runs that complete all of the levels/dungeons/worlds/etc. that exist in the standard game in cases where this is not the 100% requirement and where skipping worlds/levels is a valid option. Note that this would not apply when you skip levels within a world but avoid skipping worlds, but *would* apply if you do all the worlds, but out of order (i.e. a warpless run for Mario would not be All Levels, but a run that beats all the levels, even if it does so out of order would be All Levels). As stated before, this also doesn't apply where skipping levels is not an option at all.
We combine this with 100%, as they are both full completion.
Habreno wrote:
Playaround has been discussed prior, but should be more applied to TASes that don't aim for speed but instead show off technical capabilities of the game or console itself.
Max Score is a 100% alternative for games based on score and not a completion level, and should be the highest score obtainable in the game. This should not be used in cases where 100% is possible (i.e. Max Score and 100% should be mutually exclusive for a given game), even if score is different from 100%.
Best Ending, and its counterpart, Worst Ending, should be completion alternatives where the fastest ending is neither the best nor worst, assuming there are multiple endings. It's not necessary for this to be mutually exclusive with 100% or Max Score, but odds are it will be.
Special Goal should be for cases that do not fit under the above tags nor Any%, and could include esoteric goals (such as max coins) that are still optimized for speed (this being a key difference between playaround and special goal).
So that's the only thing that we're completely lacking. But see, your definition of it already differs from Niamek's, who's nevertheless agreeing with you.
Habreno wrote:
This could include a completion that goes beyond 100% (such as All Permanent Flags, to use an example from Twilight Princess- in addition to 100% we aim to set every permanent flag in the game, which includes opening every chest as well as other things) as well as encompassing some rather obscure glitch categories that don't fall under the above tags.
This part perfectly describes full completion. If something has 101%, or additional tasks that add to completion, we still count these as full completion. You can't go for completion fuller than full, can you? You just have to define it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
